Mary S

There has been some discussion of gaslighting in therapy in recent issues of Scientific American -- first, in the October 2022 issue, and some follow-up in the February, 2023 issue. (I don't know if these are online, but they may be available on a newsstand or in a local library.)

Yes, they so often sounded arrogant, like they knew it all -- and who was I (a mere client) to disagree with them.

I just came across this website, titled "How to Talk to a Science Denier". As I read it, it seemed to me that therapists often are like science deniers. So I am wondering if the advice in the website about how to talk to science deniers might also help someone talk to a therapist. Has anyone on this list actually tried some of the methods in the linked website? If so, how did it go?

Out of curiosity, I looked up some training programs for therapists. in particular, I had in mind something on the Good Therapy website that said that one qualification for a therapist was a Master's in Counseling degree. So I tried looking up what that type of degree consists of. One site I found was https://www.bestcolleges.com/features/masters-counseling-programs/#curriculum . Here's a quote from that site: "Is a master's in counseling worth it? Yes. For individuals with a strong desire to help people overcome challenges and live their best lives, a master's degree in counseling can lead to a successful and fulfilling career. Professional counselors also need state licensure, which requires a master's degree. How much does it cost to get a master's in counseling? The College Board reports that the annual tuition and fees for a master's degree at a four-year public institution costs an average of $8,950. A master's at a private nonprofit four-year college or university costs $29,670. Costs vary based on the type of college, state of residency, and online or on-campus instruction." So this sounds like a prospective Good Therapy-qualified therapist may have a substantial up-front cost. The page continues with: "How long does it take to complete a master's in counseling? Most master's degrees in counseling require 60 credits and take two years of full-time study to complete. Some online programs offer accelerated tracks that can lead to a master's degree in 18 months. What is the difference between an MA and an MS in counseling? While both options offer similar coursework, a master of arts (MA) leans toward the humanities and liberal arts. In contrast, a master of science (MS) focuses more on research and statistics. Is it better to get a master's in counseling or psychology? A psychology master's program focuses more on research and psychometric assessments. Licensed clinical psychologists may work with people with serious mental illnesses, and most states require a doctorate. A master's in counseling focuses on holistic, practical skill sets that help clients through their unique challenges. I wonder how many prospective therapy clients ask their prospective therapists which type of degree the therapist has, and why they chose that particular degree. I also wonder how many therapists volunteer the information about what type of degree they have, and why they chose that degree. The website continues with some degree of specific information about various universities that offer the degrees that are needed to become a therapist. I wish there were a website that told prospective therapy clients what questions to ask their prospective therapists. And I wonder how prospective therapists would respond to questions that it would help the client to know the answers to.

Here's a quote from one of Eve's links: "The TikToker says BetterHelp therapists receive around $30 an hour while a typical hourly rate is around $100. He also explains that BetterHelp pays therapists using a set word count in their text service, which puts therapists in a difficult situation when hitting the word limit: give clients free services or stop replying. Either choice can result in resentment between clients and therapists, he says. While Guenther supports making mental health care more accessible, he notes that “this is not how we’ve been trained and we don’t think this is a healthy therapeutic relationship.” “We don’t think you should have 24-hour access to a therapist,” Guenther explains. “That’s going to create an expectation for you that we should always be there. That’s not going to create self-reliance.” I am skeptical about the things "the TikTokker" says about BetterHelp: 1) "The TikToker says BetterHelp therapists receive around $30 an hour while a typical hourly rate is around $100" This does not seem well thought out. First,"typical therapy" (i.e.,in person therapy) is usually carried out in an office that the therapist rents for this purpose, whereas BetterHelp type therapy does not require renting an office. Thus, in "typical therapy", the client's fee needs to include the cost of the office rental, whereas BetterHelp therapy does not require the office rental cost to be included in the therapist's pay. This means that we should expect the BetterHelp hourly rate of pay for the therapist to be less than the typical hourly rate. Also, since different cities may have different rates for office space rental, it is to be expected that the rate of pay for therapist will vary from location to location. 2) "“We don’t think you should have 24-hour access to a therapist,” Guenther explains. “That’s going to create an expectation for you that we should always be there. That’s not going to create self-reliance.” This also does not seem well thought out; it is just conjectural on the part of the writer -- just his opinion, but with no backing up by actually asking clients or checking data on client expectations. From what I understand, an online therapist is not required to reply to a client instantly. (It is possible that BetterHelp might require the therapist to reply within a certain time frame -- I do not know whether or not this is the case.)

Here's a site I find very interesting -- especially the idea of authenticity, and especially the idea that authenticity can make one less vulnerable to narcissists.

An article I haven't seen before but that appears to say some worthwhile things about bad therapy: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/lifespan-perspectives/202106/can-therapy-be-harmful . The middle reference was one I have read before, but the other two are new to me.

Yes, that does seem to be the case -- and my experience is that most of them have life experiences that have very little if any overlap with the life experiences that are most important to me in the therapy context -- e.g., often when I try to talk about something important to me, they change the subject, perhaps by saying, "That's not what I'm interested in," or "Why do you keep bringing that up?". I might as well not be there; the old saying, "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts" seems to describe what they do so often. (And then there are the times when they laugh or give me a scornful look when I bring up something important to me.)

I looked at this a little more today. One thing that seems spot-on is a post saying that therapists-in-training get "taught to pass the test", rather than taught the so many important things that are not on the test.

Ha anyone in this forum tried online therapy, such as "Better Help"?

I just came across the website https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDlaSt0E3GM, which discusses bad therapy. I haven't looked it over very thoroughly so far, but what I have looked at on it so far seems to be written from the therapist's perspective -- there does seem to be some self-criticism on the part of the therapists (so far I haven't found any comments by clients). It also seems to involve a lot of "theoretical orientation" type discussion, which tends to shut out client participation. What the therapists have said in what I have looked at so far seems to suggest that they might be open to new perspectives from clients. I don't think I'm up to challenging them at this point, but maybe I'll get up the gumption to do it at some point, and maybe some of the people on TTCS may be more up to "challenging" them than I am at this point.

Welcome, RF5!

Another thing that irritates me about a lot of therapists: They sometimes "give permission". Sometimes it's giving permission to do something I see no good reason to do, and sometimes it's "giving me permission" when what I think would be more appropriate would be something like "I respect your right to do/not do this."

That fits my experience as well. They just seemed off in some fairy tale world, that had little connection with the real world that I have lived in for several decades.

This is so depressing -- the client sounds like she has her head on straight, but the therapist sounds like she's off in some fairy tale world -- and perhaps pretty narcissistic (e.g., "Know it all").