Very happy to discover this forum - wanting to join

[Trip]

Hello, I'm very happy to discover this forum. As happy as I am fed up with most of the therapists I have seen these past 10 years. I live in France and on the forums I have found I only managed to get "therapy-splained" about the fact that I did not understand what therapy really is about. I have seen so much appeal to authority and crossing boundaries in therapy, I am really fed up with it. I just started googling in english and I find that the english speaking world is much more advanced on these questions than my country, which is still plagued by psychoanalysis... It's terrible because even the best therapists that I can find still tend to take it personally when I talk about other bad therapists, they don't seem to get it even if they are much better than the others. I always hear some "you know, it depends on the client too, we can't predict if what we say will hurt the person or not, it's difficult for us". When I clearly explain them that this isn't the problem. I am a person who looks a bit out of touch with reality, I know I can look nervous even when I am not because I am very static, very intellectual and not displaying a lot of emotions even if I do feel them. This makes a lot of people think I am a very gullible person, lost in his mind, who is out of touch with reality, not just psychologists, but doctors too and scammers as well. So it seems that whatever I say, doctors tend to not listen to me but just trust their intuition based on what I look like and think that everything that comes out of my mouth is hypocondria infused fantasies about myself whereas they know the obvious truth that is visible just by reading my face. Really it's true to a point that makes it ridiculous. I hate it when they tell me the usual "so you think this about that person, but really they didn't tell you explicitly that this is what they thought, so its just an assumption on your part, right?". And at the same time they are the ones who play fortune tellers when they tell me that they "knew since I walked to the desk in their office that my problem was social anxiety and nothing else", whereas they deny me the most basic ability to read non-verbal language. And this is just one example of the way they try to assert their authority and manipulate me. And strangely enough, they only question my intuition when it goes against theirs.

I was afraid this forum was dead because I did not manage to join, but apparently I just can't read and click a big button at a top of a page... I will be very happy to read your posts and share about those different therapists I have so many things to vent about. It's nice to find a place that makes me feel I am not crazy and alone after all.

 

 

[Eve B]

Hello and glad you were able to find us, Trip! I think the forum has been quieter than usual because of summer vacation time, and people probably prefer reading posts than writing them. I've wondered how much worse (or better) therapists are in other countries. European countries seem to include free therapy as part of the govt healthcare, but clients don't get to choose their therapist?

Therapists do tend to be very sensitive to criticism. When the process is subjective and client outcomes are inconsistent, I suppose they would feel a strong need to protect the credibility of their profession. 

[Trip]

Yes, it's still a tiny bit more complicated than that but one will pay around 30€ in average for a psychiatrist or psychologist (other professions not protected by a diploma are usually not covered), or less if one has an additional coverage from a complementary health insurance. I am lucky that this is really inexpensive for me so the price is definitely not a limitation. Also I don't think insurance companies can limit refunding to some therapists only, which I am greatful for.

So choosing isn't really a problem for me, but finding is. I have tried many therapists now, including those I have seen only once I have seen about 23 of them. Usually I left them because they did not seem to listen, because they were authoritarian or condescending, or just seemed incompetent to me, or all of the above. On all this list, I have found about 4 relatively good ones so far and had to leave them because I moved or because they retired. I plan to write extensively about that because there is really a lot I need to vent about.

[disequilibrium1]

Trip, glad you found this place. You describe many parallels to my experiences, therapy's authoritarian nature, the fortune telling, being made to feel foolish. I'd venture most or all humans are "gullible" some times in their lives, particularly when they need answers and someone pretends to have them. I notice you used the phrase "appeal to authority," and since your English is quite nuanced (particularly in contrast to me as a student stumbling to converse in rudimentary Spanish) and wondered if you meant that in the persuasion/propaganda sense: winning an argument by evoking vague, even unattributed "expertise."

I doubt the mainstream American, client or provider, looks at therapy critically beyond clinicians criticizing another modality. I read the most thoughtful material coming out of the UK.

I usually prepare a written list of symptoms and history when I go to a medical provider with a complicated problem. I too feel doctors tune me out, and I feel less like a jabbering female if I hand them something to read.
I hope you find peace. All contributors here seem to have a lot to vent.
 

[Mary S]

9 hours ago, Trip said:

Usually I left them because they did not seem to listen, because they were authoritarian or condescending, or just seemed incompetent to me, or all of the above.

That fits my experience as well. They just seemed off in some fairy tale world, that had little connection with the real world that I have lived in for several decades.

[Mary S]

Another thing that irritates me about a lot of therapists: They  sometimes "give permission". Sometimes it's giving permission to do something I see no good reason to do, and sometimes it's "giving me permission" when what I think would be more appropriate would be something like "I respect your right to do/not do this."

[disequilibrium1]

10 hours ago, Mary S said:

Another thing that irritates me about a lot of therapists: They  sometimes "give permission". Sometimes it's giving permission to do something I see no good reason to do, and sometimes it's "giving me permission" when what I think would be more appropriate would be something like "I respect your right to do/not do this."

“Giving permission” conveys an utterly infantilizing, authoritarian construct of the therapist’s sagacity towering over the client’s folly and frailty. This mindset can’t possibly be helpful. A strong creative friend who long succeeded as a musician seemingly  turned into goo with her therapist. “My therapist tells me my sister is a narcissist.” “My therapist wants me to stay off Facebook for two weeks.” I think it one thing to use the space to mull insights, experiments or resolutions, but I wince at these “expert” decrees. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by disequilibrium1

[Happynow]

Trip, I have been happy to find this forum too. For me it has been more beneficial than most of the therapists I have seen.

One could be forgiven thinking that this forum is littered with crazy people kicked out by therapists. Absolutely the opposite. Posters on here are sane, stable and intelligent and of course they are extremely helpful because they all experienced the same issues with therapists we have.

Therapists, believe me, they are the crazy ones.

Good luck on your journey.

[Trip]

On 5/17/2022 at 11:15 PM, disequilibrium1 said:

Trip, glad you found this place. You describe many parallels to my experiences, therapy's authoritarian nature, the fortune telling, being made to feel foolish. I'd venture most or all humans are "gullible" some times in their lives, particularly when they need answers and someone pretends to have them. I notice you used the phrase "appeal to authority," and since your English is quite nuanced (particularly in contrast to me as a student stumbling to converse in rudimentary Spanish) and wondered if you meant that in the persuasion/propaganda sense: winning an argument by evoking vague, even unattributed "expertise."

I doubt the mainstream American, client or provider, looks at therapy critically beyond clinicians criticizing another modality. I read the most thoughtful material coming out of the UK.

I usually prepare a written list of symptoms and history when I go to a medical provider with a complicated problem. I too feel doctors tune me out, and I feel less like a jabbering female if I hand them something to read.
I hope you find peace. All contributors here seem to have a lot to vent.
 

Thank you and thank you everyone for your support! It is very very much appreciated!

And yes, I meant appeal to authority in that sense indeed. I understand that they have studied psychology or psychiatry and they know more about it than me (but sadly not always...), but there is no amount of studies that can tell them how I feel better than I do and somehow they still try to explain it to me.

And it's a good idea to write things down. Sometimes they ask me what my symptoms are and I start with the dumbest thing I remember, I lose credibility and then whatever I say after it feels like I can't regain it. And if I insist, they think I am manipulating them, or I am obsessed with something or something like that. But if I start with the strongest example, they will accept or ignore the weaker ones that come after. So I have to work on my rethoric. And it's frustrating because it feels like I am indeed manipulating them into understanding me. They think they are the teachers giving me a lecture about who I am objectively, and yet I am the one who has to step around their biases....

[Happynow]

39 minutes ago, Trip said:

Thank you and thank you everyone for your support! It is very very much appreciated!

And yes, I meant appeal to authority in that sense indeed. I understand that they have studied psychology or psychiatry and they know more about it than me (but sadly not always...), but there is no amount of studies that can tell them how I feel better than I do and somehow they still try to explain it to me.

And it's a good idea to write things down. Sometimes they ask me what my symptoms are and I start with the dumbest thing I remember, I lose credibility and then whatever I say after it feels like I can't regain it. And if I insist, they think I am manipulating them, or I am obsessed with something or something like that. But if I start with the strongest example, they will accept or ignore the weaker ones that come after. So I have to work on my rethoric. And it's frustrating because it feels like I am indeed manipulating them into understanding me. They think they are the teachers giving me a lecture about who I am objectively, and yet I am the one who has to step around their biases....

Ironically they learn from us not the other way around even though they grab the higher ground for appearances and to try and gain authority. IMO it's their defence mechanism.