the dark side of therapy

[Sylvester McMonkey McBean]

have a listen to this podcast about how to recognise when the therapeutic relationships goes bad:

the dark side of therapy

although the advice is a bit too late to be of any help for me, but they did touch on many of the exact aspects of what went wrong in the relationship with my T. and as per usual, at the end they advise to seek further therapy to help get over the bad therapy instead of daring to take the discussion a bit further and questioning if perhaps there is something inherently wrong with the system of therapy in the first place.   

what are your thoughts? Is this a step in the right direction that these Ts are bringing this the forefront and discussing it? or just more fluff to make Ts look and feel better about themselves?       

Edited September 24, 2017 by Sylvester McMonkey McBean

[Mary S]

Thanks for the link.

My impression: This does seem to be a step in a positive direction. The opening turned me off – discussion of how the participants enjoy helping people and are passionate about what they do; the usual complaint of “all about the therapist.”

But there were several good points:

1. The mention that some therapists are predatory. But this was too brief, and emphasized just accreditation and licensing, rather than discussing the fact that accredited, licensed therapists can also be predatory. It was also good to mention that it can sometimes hard to distinguish between “good” and predatory therapists.

2. The mention of “discredited therapies” was good – but probably could be more extensive.

3. Also good: The therapist needs to have place to go to protect the client from therapists strong feelings in reaction to what the client says. (In my experience, it did often seem as though therapists shot from the hip rather than considering what I said thoughtfully.)

4. The idea of holding client the client hostage (inducing guilt or shame in client for wanting to leave) is worthwhile. I experienced this from three therapists when I said I was going to quit. The first said, “You expect too much”; the second, “I can’t help you if you take everything I say as criticism”; the third, “You’ll never get better if you keep seeking the perfect therapist.” (She was far, far from perfect!)

5. They do talk at times about how “The therapist’s need to help” can interfere with good therapy.

6. The discussion of how what happens when therapists “let boundaries slip” can be harmful for client is good.

7. They give some good advice for helping distinguish between good and bad therapy, roughly summarized as:
“Basically it comes down to this: You should be feeling better.” (I’d add: If you are getting worse, then it is really bad therapy!)
“Do therapists use your feedback effectively?”
“If you experience defensiveness and blaming, then you know something’s going wrong.”
“Therapy is supposed to help you build up your sense of who you are.”

I think this might have been helpful when I was trying therapy -- perhaps in quitting sooner, but to support my decision to quit therapists in any event.

[Sylvester McMonkey McBean]

great feedback mary!  i added my comments in italics: 

But there were several good points:

1. The mention that some therapists are predatory. But this was too brief, and emphasized just accreditation and licensing, rather than discussing the fact that accredited, licensed therapists can also be predatory. It was also good to mention that it can sometimes hard to distinguish between “good” and predatory therapists.

agreed...and i too wish they would have talked about Ts who are predatory in behavior not because of a lack of accreditation.  

 

3. Also good: The therapist needs to have place to go to protect the client from therapists strong feelings in reaction to what the client says. (In my experience, it did often seem as though therapists shot from the hip rather than considering what I said thoughtfully.)

this was my experince too at times.

4. The idea of holding client the client hostage (inducing guilt or shame in client for wanting to leave) is worthwhile. I experienced this from three therapists when I said I was going to quit. The first said, “You expect too much”; the second, “I can’t help you if you take everything I say as criticism”; the third, “You’ll never get better if you keep seeking the perfect therapist.” (She was far, far from perfect!)

i was really surprised that they talked about this and glad for it, because  my ex-T did this exact thing when i was ready to start discussing termination. i felt like he was manipulating me when tears started to well up in his eyes when we talked of how some clients just end and don't go through a termination process.  then later when i was officially announced i was ready to end, he pulled the 'but there is still so much more to explore' card. hearing these ladies talk about this definilty helped me to feel validated in my experince and that yes, ex-T was acting inappropriately instead of this just bring me as a disgruntled client ranting. 

5. They do talk at times about how “The therapist’s need to help” can interfere with good therapy. 

yes, this happened in my therapy...

6. The discussion of how what happens when therapists “let boundaries slip” can be harmful for client is good.

and this definitly happened too...

7. They give some good advice for helping distinguish between good and bad therapy, roughly summarized as:
“Basically it comes down to this: You should be feeling better.” (I’d add: If you are getting worse, then it is really bad therapy!)

i was't feeling better and was getting worse over the years

“Do therapists use your feedback effectively?”

mine did sometimes, but other times he was defensive about it

“If you experience defensiveness and blaming, then you know something’s going wrong.”

yup....as stated in my response above. at first, i thought it was my fault that ex-T was so defensive at times...i was a challenging client and he use to tell me so at times. since i was frustrating him, i use to think i must be doing the therapy wrong and it was something i had to change. he would eventually apoplgise for being defensive, but then would use the therapy get out of jail card 'i'm only human' excuse.  it wasn't until later, as i became a wiser therapy consumer that i realised that his defensiveness was inappropriate and the cause of many problems in the relationship and it always diminished my trust  in him.  

“Therapy is supposed to help you build up your sense of who you are.”

 um, yeah...no....  i was not really getting any of this or much of any other kind of empowering encouragement from ex-T.  at one time i felt absolutely and incredibly lost...i had no real fuck'n sense of  who i was or who i was suppose to be. 

so, as you see...according to these Ts, my ex-T is a big fat loser of a T to be greatly avoided...  and sometimes that is difficult to swallow because often he seemed so kind and to have his heart in the right place that he wouldn't be trying to fuck me over.  that is why it is easiest to just chalk up most of my harmful therapy to his incompetency and his narcissistic traits of ultimately fulfilling his own needs in the T relationship.    

 

[Sylvester McMonkey McBean]

58 minutes ago, RealityCheque said:

Ha ha ha, yeah "don't forget to lovingly fleece your victim" 

God these people are such unrelenting bullshit vendors. 

yeah, i had a similar reaction to that comment they made about boundaries and ending sessions right on the mark. 

[Mary S]

Unsurprisingly (to me), I woke up in the middle of the night thinking that my response to the Dark Side Podcast was overly positive. That is probably correct – I do have a tendency sometimes to be overly positive. So I’ll add to it now:

The types of therapy that focuses on attachment and/or particular types of client/therapist relationship are, to me, inherently problematic (likely to do harm), especially when practiced by therapists who are enthusiastic, interested in people, like helping people and/or passionate about what they do. So the cautionary measures proposed in the podcast are especially important in these types of situations. I don’t think these measures are strong enough to guarantee that the therapists will do no harm, but can help reduce the chances of harm. And it is important that clients be aware of problems that might lead to harm, so that they can take the necessary (but often painful) steps of calling the therapist out and, if necessary, stopping the therapy before too much harm is done.

[Mary S]

10 hours ago, Sylvester McMonkey McBean said:

... 4. The idea of holding client the client hostage (inducing guilt or shame in client for wanting to leave) is worthwhile. I experienced this from three therapists when I said I was going to quit. The first said, “You expect too much”; the second, “I can’t help you if you take everything I say as criticism”; the third, “You’ll never get better if you keep seeking the perfect therapist.” (She was far, far from perfect!)

 

i was really surprised that they talked about this and glad for it, because  my ex-T did this exact thing when i was ready to start discussing termination. i felt like he was manipulating me when tears started to well up in his eyes when we talked of how some clients just end and don't go through a termination process.  then later when i was officially announced i was ready to end, he pulled the 'but there is still so much more to explore' card.

That therapist was really lacking in accurate empathy! He sure behaved manipulatively -- but I am guessing that he had no idea that his behavior was indeed manipulative.

7. They give some good advice for helping distinguish between good and bad therapy, roughly summarized as:
“Basically it comes down to this: You should be feeling better.” (I’d add: If you are getting worse, then it is really bad therapy!)

i was't feeling better and was getting worse over the years

I started getting worse with my second (and worst) therapist. I was really going off the deep end -- things like standing in a corner mumbling, "I don't exist. I'm a figment of everybody's imagination." But at least that convinced me I needed to quit her.

... so, as you see...according to these Ts, my ex-T is a big fat loser of a T to be greatly avoided...  and sometimes that is difficult to swallow because often he seemed so kind and to have his heart in the right place that he wouldn't be trying to fuck me over.  that is why it is easiest to just chalk up most of my harmful therapy to his incompetency and his narcissistic traits of ultimately fulfilling his own needs in the T relationship.    

He sounds like he was totally unaware of his own problems, but they really made him incompetent to help anyone who had any more than very minor problems. But even then, his "addiction" to playing the therapist role might have caused therapy to drag on to the point of harming the client. So sad. The system is broken.

 

[Mary S]

12 hours ago, Mary S said:

...
4. The idea of holding client the client hostage (inducing guilt or shame in client for wanting to leave) is worthwhile. I experienced this from three therapists when I said I was going to quit. The first said, “You expect too much”; the second, “I can’t help you if you take everything I say as criticism”; the third, “You’ll never get better if you keep seeking the perfect therapist.” (She was far, far from perfect!)

Another example from the third therapist: "You need to be more tolerant," when I had been trying and trying to be tolerant of her. I discussed this with my partner, and he said I was one of the most tolerant people he knew. (BTW, when I asked her if he could come to a session with me, she said no -- but he could see her separately. He did so, and she answered his questions, whereas she would not answer mine, at least not in any kind of informative way.)

 

[Sylvester McMonkey McBean]

13 hours ago, Mary S said:

The types of therapy that focuses on attachment and/or particular types of client/therapist relationship are, to me, inherently problematic (likely to do harm), especially when practiced by therapists who are enthusiastic, interested in people, like helping people and/or passionate about what they do. So the cautionary measures proposed in the podcast are especially important in these types of situations. I don’t think these measures are strong enough to guarantee that the therapists will do no harm, but can help reduce the chances of harm. And it is important that clients be aware of problems that might lead to harm, so that they can take the necessary (but often painful) steps of calling the therapist out and, if necessary, stopping the therapy before too much harm is done.

even though i did start to question and recognise that there were problems in the therapy, i was too sucked into the attachment (enamored) and for a long time felt very powerless to even consider taking steps to ending.  i kept telling myself that if i am open and honest with him, and communicate my feelings and doubts with him, like he wanted me to do and encouraged all the time,  that he would hear me, be fully attuned and understanding, and change his hurtful ways. if he did change, it never lasted and then the pattern would repeat all over again. 

 i reckon this is similar to being caught up in the muck of a toxic, abusive, and/or narcissistic relationship. 

[here today]

My general attitude toward therapy is so negative these days that the podcasters' happy, "Oh, my job is so wonderful!" just really made me feel sick.  For instance, I "felt safe" enough with therapists and the theoretical process of therapy and then ended up getting shamed by them, rupture without repair.  They just quit and left the job unfinished.  NOT safe.  (Stupid me!)

"Safety" in therapy?  How ridiculous and OPPOSITE to my experience with it.  Yes, I wanted and needed to get in touch with my gut -- but that's what I thought I was going to therapy for, not something which I needed as a prerequisite before I started.

Thanks for posting, though.  Interesting to see how deluded so many therapists still are.

[Mary S]

10 hours ago, here today said:

My general attitude toward therapy is so negative these days that the podcasters' happy, "Oh, my job is so wonderful!" just really made me feel sick.  For instance, I "felt safe" enough with therapists and the theoretical process of therapy and then ended up getting shamed by them, rupture without repair.  They just quit and left the job unfinished.  NOT safe.  (Stupid me!)

No, not stupid you -- unethical them.

[Mary S]

10 hours ago, here today said:

"Safety" in therapy?  How ridiculous and OPPOSITE to my experience with it. 

That was my experience, too.

I asked the second therapist I tried, "What is therapy? She said, "a safe place to work on your problems." That sounded good. But later, she said, 'You're the star" That definitely did not sound safe or helpful for me-- coping with personal attention was a big part of my problem (I guess a weird sort of social phobia). I guess I gasped or something, so she said, "You may not like it; you may not like the process." It went downhill from there.

A few years later, I asked another therapist (who was one of the better ones I tried) what "therapy is a safe place" means. He said it meant that what you say in therapy won't get out to others in your life. That sounded like he was saying it wasn't emotionally safe, which is what I had assumed safe meant in the context of therapy.

[Mary S]

On 09/25/2017 at 12:25 AM, Sylvester McMonkey McBean said:

... i was really surprised that they talked about this and glad for it, because  my ex-T did this exact thing when i was ready to start discussing termination. i felt like he was manipulating me when tears started to well up in his eyes when we talked of how some clients just end and don't go through a termination process.  then later when i was officially announced i was ready to end, he pulled the 'but there is still so much more to explore' card.

 

5. They do talk at times about how “The therapist’s need to help” can interfere with good therapy. 

yes, this happened in my therapy...

6. The discussion of how what happens when therapists “let boundaries slip” can be harmful for client is good.

and this definitly happened too...

... so, as you see...according to these Ts, my ex-T is a big fat loser of a T to be greatly avoided...  and sometimes that is difficult to swallow because often he seemed so kind and to have his heart in the right place that he wouldn't be trying to fuck me over.  that is why it is easiest to just chalk up most of my harmful therapy to his incompetency and his narcissistic traits of ultimately fulfilling his own needs in the T relationship.    

 

These comments and the ones you made earlier about how he seemed to be using you for intimacy, and his wife leaving him and finally divorcing him, kept sticking in my mind yesterday. He is really pathetic, not just in being so needy, but in using you to try to satisfy his neediness -- he is a pathetic predator. People like this need to be weeded out of the profession.

[Mary S]

On 09/26/2017 at 12:12 AM, Sylvester McMonkey McBean said:

... i reckon this is similar to being caught up in the muck of a toxic, abusive, and/or narcissistic relationship. 

I'd leave out "similar to". It was all three.

[AdamP]

I find it ironic that they warn against predatory therapists.  All therapists are predators.

[Mary S]

3 minutes ago, AdamP said:

I find it ironic that they warn against predatory therapists.  All therapists are predators.

I can't honestly agree that "all therapists are predators" -- in my experience of trying perhaps 15 therapists over a period of perhaps 30 years, there were 2 that I can't see calling "predators". They were basically kind, decent people, trying to help, who realized they didn't know it all. And their basic decency was a little helpful. (There was also a third who did have a slight predatory streak -- but he recognized it when I pointed it out, so I'd consider him basically decent, too.)

But that still leaves my experience as giving an estimate of about 80% of therapists as predators -- far too high for a profession that calls itself "helping".

[AdamP]

I only listened to a few bits, but toward the end, talking about "safe vulnerability", the magic, opening and growing... so unbelievably patronizing and nauseating.  

And of course they bring up boundaries. 

I wish I could rig a system whereby anyone who mentions the word "boundaries" in a therapy context gets an electric shock or is hit with a club.

[Mary S]

5 hours ago, AdamP said:

I only listened to a few bits, but toward the end, talking about "safe vulnerability", the magic, opening and growing... so unbelievably patronizing and nauseating.  

And of course they bring up boundaries. 

I wish I could rig a system whereby anyone who mentions the word "boundaries" in a therapy context gets an electric shock or is hit with a club.

Yes, there was a lot that was patronizing, nauseating, arrogant, ignorant. But the ratio of  positive to that kind of stuff was greater than with most things I've read by therapists.

I am not against using the word 'boundaries" in talking about therapy, but think it needs to be used in almost the opposite way that most therapists use it: The real boundary problem with therapy is that therapists violate client boundaries -- in particular, by "doing their thing" without explicit consent from the client, or with misrepresentation  of what "their thing" can do, in particular, not discussing the harm it can do.

[AdamP]

Regarding therapists being predators, I don't see most of them as overt predators, but rather they are playing the role of predator.

Agree, therapists violate boundaries by skipping consent and overselling their product.  But they violate in million other ways.  Pretending to care is a monstrous violation of emotional boundaries.  So is pushing for exposure and disclosure, and then shoving the client out the door so the therapist can drag in the next customer.  So is adopting an ambiguous and fake persona, while representing this as authentic.  The list goes on.

[Mary S]

1 hour ago, AdamP said:

Regarding therapists being predators, I don't see most of them as overt predators, but rather they are playing the role of predator.

Agree, therapists violate boundaries by skipping consent and overselling their product.  But they violate in million other ways.  Pretending to care is a monstrous violation of emotional boundaries.  So is pushing for exposure and disclosure, and then shoving the client out the door so the therapist can drag in the next customer.  So is adopting an ambiguous and fake persona, while representing this as authentic.  The list goes on.

1. Could you explain what you mean  by "overt predator" and "playing the role of predator.?

2. I'm not convinced that therapists adopt an "ambiguous and fake persona" and represent it as authentic -- I suspect that in may cases the ambiguous and fake-sounding behavior is really their authentic scatter-brained or superficial way of thinking. 

[Eve B]

It's not just the expense, but how therapists sell themselves to lure vulnerable clients into their relationship lair. They offer their 'caring' as food for the starving client's mind and soul, but it often feels more like rations that can taste good when you're hungry but really are neither nutritious nor filling. I guess therapy's kinda like Spam!

[AdamP]

19 hours ago, Mary S said:

1. Could you explain what you mean  by "overt predator" and "playing the role of predator.?

2. I'm not convinced that therapists adopt an "ambiguous and fake persona" and represent it as authentic -- I suspect that in may cases the ambiguous and fake-sounding behavior is really their authentic scatter-brained or superficial way of thinking. 

1. I imagine most of them are not predatory by nature, but have been conditioned to be that way by training.  They harvest weakness and despair for personal gain.  They make career of that. 

2. Probably both, but I def think they adopt a phony persona and sell it as authentic.  Therapists are basically probhibted from being real people in the room, but they lapse into authenticity sometimes, then revert back.

[AdamP]

18 hours ago, RealityCheque said:

I think they're predators. They base their income on having a steady stream of wounded little clients coming through the door. That's predatory. (Some of them take it further by keeping an eye out for those prone to attachment and using them as steady income for years at a time, others can't be bothered with the drama that inevitably creates with clients texting and calling at all hours, driving past their houses, the whole PC gamut of therapist-centric weirdness.)

Their financial charging is predatory too. Far more expensive than my accountant, lawyer, personal trainer, plumber. And all those people produce tangible results. 

Finally, their refusal to take responsibility for outcome is predatory. In the end it all boils down to: Yes, come see me. Pay me thousands of dollars. I'm not saying I can help you, but do it anyway. Oh, you don't feel better? Oh well. Must be your fault. No refunds. 

I don't see any context in which therapists aren't predatory. Someone who sells something they can't actually define, to people who are desperate, and offers no refunds and takes no responsibility for adverse effects is a predator. It's no different than people who sell herbal 'cures' to cancer patients, taking credit if the person lives and making themselves scarce if they die. It's all about taking advantage of someone else's weakness and desperation to line your own pockets. 

 

 

I was with you with all the way up to the herbal cures for cancer part.  I find this much less exploitive and corrupt than the demons who pour chemo poisons into desperate people, and then shrug their shoulders when that person shrivels and dies.  At least the herbs will not kill you more quickly than the cancer, and some (cannabis) are real cancer medicine.

Anyway, agree that the fees therapists charge + the uselessness/harmfulness of the product + the vulnerable customer base = the fundamental predation.

[Mary S]

Adam,

Thanks for the explanation. I can see how the training can be a conditioning to be more predatory. But I think many of them have a predisposition that also comes into play -- e.g., SMMB's therapist who really seemed to crave intimacy; one of my therapists who seemed to really like to laugh at her patients; the one who seemed to crave power.

[Eve B]

I was researching companion care (not CNA nursing care) for the elderly, and the fees for these types of caregivers are low ($15-25/hr). They seem to offer what a lot of clients could be expecting from a therapist? The difference in the pay is that clients are paying for the therapist's fancy certifications as 'experts' on the science of understanding human behavior when in reality what emotionally traumatized people need is sincere, compassionate caring.  A Ph.D. degree implies that someone is smart in the head, but authentic, healing relationships are all about the heart which is something money can never buy and schools can't ever truly teach. Makes me wonder if therapy training is deliberately or inadvertently creating greedy, selfish, and manipulative mindfuckers?

[Mary S]

I don't agree that "A Ph.D. degree implies that someone is smart in the head." Maybe a Ph.D. degree in physics does, but not a Ph.D. degree in psychology.

Your wondering "if therapy training is deliberately or inadvertently creating greedy, selfish, and manipulative mindfuckers" seems a rational response to the reality of my experience. I suspect there is a "self-reproducing" aspect to therapy training: If the trainers are arrogant and manipulative, those traits are likely to be passed on to on their students. But also, the field is likely to be attractive to people who already have those traits, and want to have them "affirmed" as desirable.

Part of the reason I believe this: My worst therapist was a trainer when I was her client.

(I still think there are some good therapists out there, and some trainers who set a good example -- but that the field has far too many who are arrogant, manipulative, etc.)