Greetings

[Old Man]

Hi All,

its good to be here.

Yeah I believe ive been burned by a really unethical therapy experience, which i've documented where.  https://www.justin-marsh.co.uk  do people thinks that behavior is as an unethical as I do?

Jon

 

[Mary S]

49 minutes ago, Old Man said:

do people thinks that behavior is as an unethical as I do?

I think the therapist's behavior was extremely unethical. I'm so sorry that you (and, sadly, so many other people as well) have had to put up with such behavior. I wish that we, as a society, could somehow prevent these things from happening in the future. Unfortunately, I think therapy might always remain a "buyer beware" situation.  But at least now, with the internet, we can at least to some extent publicize instances of therapist misconduct, which hopefully can help at least some clients experiencing such therapist misconduct to quit before too much harm has been done.  I appreciate your effort to make your case public. I hope that posting the link to your website on this site can help more people to find it and help them (and others) to act at the first sign of therapist malfeasance to at least try to prevent future harm by their harmful therapist.  

[Old Man]

6 hours ago, Mary S said:

I think the therapist's behavior was extremely unethical. I'm so sorry that you (and, sadly, so many other people as well) have had to put up with such behavior. I wish that we, as a society, could somehow prevent these things from happening in the future. Unfortunately, I think therapy might always remain a "buyer beware" situation.  But at least now, with the internet, we can at least to some extent publicize instances of therapist misconduct, which hopefully can help at least some clients experiencing such therapist misconduct to quit before too much harm has been done.  I appreciate your effort to make your case public. I hope that posting the link to your website on this site can help more people to find it and help them (and others) to act at the first sign of therapist malfeasance to at least try to prevent future harm by their harmful therapist.  

The interesting thing is how far back the dishonesty went, and I was so naive to what w as right and wrong and  desperate for solutions that I was completely blind to it.

[Mary S]

14 hours ago, Old Man said:

The interesting thing is how far back the dishonesty went, and I was so naive to what w as right and wrong and  desperate for solutions that I was completely blind to it.

Yes, therapists tend to take advantage of our naivete and how the strength of our hope to change for the better can blind us to their questionable practices.

[zygomaticus]

Reading your account, OM, I would have to agree that the therapist's behaviour was utterly unethical, and not only from a professional standpoint, but on the level of personal character, too, as the timing of the 'bumping into' your ex-wife certainly suggests that it was a bid to only bring the dual-relationship into the light once the timeframe for a BACP complaint had expired. Have I understood that properly? He was having a covert relationship with her prior to that, which was kept quiet in order to prevent you from having the recourse to make a complaint to the BACP? This is clearly a very devious and cynical plan, which, I imagine, could feel like an additional slap in the face on top of the other serious breaches of trust that he was responsible for. It sounds like he wanted to protect himself professionally whilst also pursuing a romantic dual relationship that he knew all along contravened the code of ethics he was duty bound to adhere to.

The apology he wrote certainly sounds disingenuous, especially when considering his subsequent behaviour. It sounds like a tactic to placate, it reads a bit like one of those 'expedient' apologies written by PR companies hired when a corporation has been caught out publicly! The action taken by the clinic seems inadequate, again, especially in light of subsequent developments. Too often, complaints procedures are white-washes or simply no more than trying to mollify clients into agreeing no more needs to be done. My friend, who worked at a very high level as a clinical lead in multiple NHS trusts once said to me that when a complaint was made, those running services were told to 'make it go away', in other words, make the client feel like they've had their day in court and are satisfied by the lip service being paid to them. Typically, the privacy of the therapy room, and the 'my word against yours' situation would act as grounds for dropping any further action, but obviously in this case there are actions taking place beyond the clinic that demonstrably violate boundaries. This should never happen.

In my opinion, if the BACP or the clinic in question were serious about good practice, therapists like him should face more severe penalties, including the option of being struck off as BACP accredited practitioners. Any contrition he may have shown to them, in his apology, perhaps in supervision and personal therapy, is somewhat undermined by the behaviour he continued to engage in and the duplicitous nature of how he seems to have handled the whole situation.

I really feel for you having had to endure this experience. I can only imagine the magnitude of the distress it must have caused you.

[Eve B]

Welcome and thanks for sharing your experience, Old Man. That therapist definitely crossed the lines and deserved harder disciplinary actions. I'm sorry you had to suffer through such an ordeal. I applaud your strength in fighting back by filing the complaint and publicizing the facts of your case to help others avoid similar situations.

[Old Man]

On 9/27/2020 at 1:45 PM, zygomaticus said:

Reading your account, OM, I would have to agree that the therapist's behaviour was utterly unethical, and not only from a professional standpoint, but on the level of personal character, too, as the timing of the 'bumping into' your ex-wife certainly suggests that it was a bid to only bring the dual-relationship into the light once the timeframe for a BACP complaint had expired. Have I understood that properly? He was having a covert relationship with her prior to that, which was kept quiet in order to prevent you from having the recourse to make a complaint to the BACP?

 

Certain things are unclear, I know they became close friends whilst he was both my and her therapist before the marriage broke up. I know a couple of weeks after me and my wife had split he went with her to pick my kids up from school. Whether there as anything more to it then I have no evidence and will leave you to draw you own conclusions.

However after his boss had promised no more contact 2 1/2 years later he was in contact with my ex wife and pursuing a relationship with her.  I also know my ex hid the relationship lied at that point to try to stop me making a formal complaint to BACP complaint about his behaviour ( 3 years statue of limitation ). What was going on earlier and outside that I don't know. I obviously have my suspicions, but no evidence as I respected my ex wife's privacy.
 

Quote

I really feel for you having had to endure this experience. I can only imagine the magnitude of the distress it must have caused you.

Its still ongoing arguments about the kids access and support. Even though i look after my kids 50% of the time, they have a significantly higher joint income and standard of living, they are still pursing me for funds to support my kids whilst they live with him. It feels like are trying to inflict maximum physcological damage.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Old Man

[zygomaticus]

On 10/2/2020 at 1:05 AM, Old Man said:

Certain things are unclear, I know they became close friends whilst he was both my and her therapist before the marriage broke up. I know a couple of weeks after me and my wife had split he went with her to pick my kids up from school. Whether there as anything more to it then I have no evidence and will leave you to draw you own conclusions.

I understand that there is uncertainty about the exact nature of how matters unfolded, especially as, no doubt, concealment on their part was going on, but there are clear ethical guidelines about dual relationships (which, it seems, some clinicians don't take seriously whatsoever, I also know this through personal experience) and this guy definitely crossed those. What the hell is he doing going with her to pick up your kids from school? His remit was counselling in the context of your marriage, right? Then he was her personal therapist? So, he did a house visit once, for observation purposes, is that correct? Even though he'd become your ex-wife's therapist at this point, didn't he need your consent in addition to hers? Anything beyond that is contravening professional boundaries. It's unethical.

Then, therapy sessions consisting of what, to any casual observer, would look like a DATE, like taking her to a restaurant or on a country walk? What is this supposed to be, exposure therapy? Did she have phobias of eating out and the countryside? Then she's meant to send him PHOTOS of herself for therapeutic purposes? What exactly is his treatment plan in regard to this, he deems her to have body dysmorphic disorder, and he's using compliments as reinforcement? Sorry for my outraged tone, and the sarcasm, but this is so unprofessional, unethical and manipulative that it beggars belief. Except, I suspect this kind of thing isn't nearly as uncommon as people might think.

On 10/2/2020 at 1:05 AM, Old Man said:

However after his boss had promised no more contact 2 1/2 years later he was in contact with my ex wife and pursuing a relationship with her.  I also know my ex hid the relationship lied at that point to try to stop me making a formal complaint to BACP complaint about his behaviour ( 3 years statue of limitation ). What was going on earlier and outside that I don't know. I obviously have my suspicions, but no evidence as I respected my ex wife's privacy.

Your ex-wife's complicity in the deceit must have hurt, too, and if she developed any kind of feelings for him - Platonic or romantic - that is a personal matter for her (which obviously has ramifications for your marriage and family), however, where he is concerned, there is a professional code of ethics involved that forbids dual relationships for very good reasons, and when they are discarded real harm to individuals, to relationships, and to families can accrue. He should never have pursued anything other than a strictly professional relationship with her, regardless of his or her personal feelings.

On 10/2/2020 at 1:05 AM, Old Man said:

Its still ongoing arguments about the kids access and support. Even though i look after my kids 50% of the time, they have a significantly higher joint income and standard of living, they are still pursing me for funds to support my kids whilst they live with him. It feels like are trying to inflict maximum physcological damage.

So, the nightmare continues. How much salt do they intend to pour into the wounds? What's been done to you is a travesty. My goodness, it must have taken a lot of strength and fortitude for you to just get through all of it, so far, to reach this point. I truly hope it gets easier, but you have every right in the world to tell your story. Just beware, if this guy is trying to inflict damage, of the possibility he might explore bringing a libel case against you. So long as you have everything documented, you should be fine in that regard, I just know if it were me I'd want to be absolutely sure I wasn't leaving myself open to that. Did you get any legal advice on this?

[Old Man]

6 hours ago, zygomaticus said:

So, the nightmare continues. How much salt do they intend to pour into the wounds? What's been done to you is a travesty. My goodness, it must have taken a lot of strength and fortitude for you to just get through all of it, so far, to reach this point. I truly hope it gets easier, but you have every right in the world to tell your story. Just beware, if this guy is trying to inflict damage, of the possibility he might explore bringing a libel case against you. So long as you have everything documented, you should be fine in that regard, I just know if it were me I'd want to be absolutely sure I wasn't leaving myself open to that. Did you get any legal advice on this?

I do online reputation management professionally, i've documented most of this, have significant more documents than have been released and have quoted him and his boss word for word. I'm pretty sure i'm safe.  Its a review, its got opinion elements and all the factual stuff is correct and documented.

This coming in today was pretty satisfying, that's the google listing for his name and therapist, coming in above his business site.

 

[Old Man]

7 hours ago, zygomaticus said:

Your ex-wife's complicity in the deceit must have hurt, too, and if she developed any kind of feelings for him - Platonic or romantic - that is a personal matter for her (which obviously has ramifications for your marriage and family), however, where he is concerned, there is a professional code of ethics involved that forbids dual relationships for very good reasons, and when they are discarded real harm to individuals, to relationships, and to families can accrue. He should never have pursued anything other than a strictly professional relationship with her, regardless of his or her personal feelings.

To be fair we were exes, she is free to do what she wants. I wish she had thought about the kids more....   but she had no duty of care to me as such.

[zygomaticus]

46 minutes ago, Old Man said:

I do online reputation management professionally, i've documented most of this, have significant more documents than have been released and have quoted him and his boss word for word. I'm pretty sure i'm safe.  Its a review, its got opinion elements and all the factual stuff is correct and documented.

This coming in today was pretty satisfying, that's the google listing for his name and therapist, coming in above his business site.

In that case you'd know way better than me about such matters, and that's reassuring to know you're highly unlikely to be exposed in any way.

The Google search result is encouraging, because it must be a very rare situation indeed where a therapist's online marketing and an extensive and thorough client review get an equal footing on a search engine. Mostly, clients don't even have the recourse to write reviews, well, not unless they go down the route that you did, and publish their own site. I applaud you, frankly.

[Old Man]

1 minute ago, zygomaticus said:

In that case you'd know way better than me about such matters, and that's reassuring to know you're highly unlikely to be exposed in any way.

The Google search result is encouraging, because it must be a very rare situation indeed where a therapist's online marketing and an extensive and thorough client review get an equal footing on a search engine. Mostly, clients don't even have the recourse to write reviews, well, not unless they go down the route that you did, and publish their own site. I applaud you, frankly.

Whilst being in therapy holds an negative association very few people are going to put there names to a public review.  Especially in the realm of sex addiction in which justin works.

[Old Man]

On 10/6/2020 at 3:21 PM, zygomaticus said:

I understand that there is uncertainty about the exact nature of how matters unfolded, especially as, no doubt, concealment on their part was going on, but there are clear ethical guidelines about dual relationships (which, it seems, some clinicians don't take seriously whatsoever, I also know this through personal experience) and this guy definitely crossed those. What the hell is he doing going with her to pick up your kids from school? His remit was counselling in the context of your marriage, right? Then he was her personal therapist? So, he did a house visit once, for observation purposes, is that correct? Even though he'd become your ex-wife's therapist at this point, didn't he need your consent in addition to hers? Anything beyond that is contravening professional boundaries. It's unethical.

Then, therapy sessions consisting of what, to any casual observer, would look like a DATE, like taking her to a restaurant or on a country walk? What is this supposed to be, exposure therapy? Did she have phobias of eating out and the countryside? Then she's meant to send him PHOTOS of herself for therapeutic purposes? What exactly is his treatment plan in regard to this, he deems her to have body dysmorphic disorder, and he's using compliments as reinforcement? Sorry for my outraged tone, and the sarcasm, but this is so unprofessional, unethical and manipulative that it beggars belief. Except, I suspect this kind of thing isn't nearly as uncommon as people might think.

Your ex-wife's complicity in the deceit must have hurt, too, and if she developed any kind of feelings for him - Platonic or romantic - that is a personal matter for her (which obviously has ramifications for your marriage and family), however, where he is concerned, there is a professional code of ethics involved that forbids dual relationships for very good reasons, and when they are discarded real harm to individuals, to relationships, and to families can accrue. He should never have pursued anything other than a strictly professional relationship with her, regardless of his or her personal feelings.

So, the nightmare continues. How much salt do they intend to pour into the wounds? What's been done to you is a travesty. My goodness, it must have taken a lot of strength and fortitude for you to just get through all of it, so far, to reach this point. I truly hope it gets easier, but you have every right in the world to tell your story. Just beware, if this guy is trying to inflict damage, of the possibility he might explore bringing a libel case against you. So long as you have everything documented, you should be fine in that regard, I just know if it were me I'd want to be absolutely sure I wasn't leaving myself open to that. Did you get any legal advice on this?

After I have had accusations of harassment made, which I currently think are not fair or unjust, it think it is currently prudent for me to remove the content from the site.

[Eve B]

How long did you have your site up before this pressure to remove it? Stating facts isn't harassment unless that therapist has some documentation of his own invalidating your side of the story?

[Old Man]

55 minutes ago, Eve B said:

How long did you have your site up before this pressure to remove it? Stating facts isn't harassment unless that therapist has some documentation of his own invalidating your side of the story?

Talking to the kind officer this morning, do anything someone finds distressing twice is harassment.... its an odd law, much open to abuse.

If the therapist insists on the case, he would have it put it through the cps, they would decide whether to prosecute and then id have to take my chances in court. I probably have bigger fish to fry right now, but to my mind worrying the law can be abused in this way.

The site was up for 2 weeks, when he boss found at about it the pressure arrived. However over 200 people saw it.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Old Man

[zygomaticus]

When you say officer, you mean you had a visit from the police? So he made a complaint but didn't seek to bring charges against you? I wonder what the legal definition of distress is here in the UK! I see what you mean about it being open to abuse, and the horrible irony of that is that the complaint of harassment can in itself effectively prove to be harassment against the individual being accused, if that makes sense. After all, there are other rights in play here, like the right to your free speech to articulate an account that you can also back up with documentation. Clearly, the person in this whole situation that's been caused the greatest distress is you.

In terms of the pressure arriving, in what form did it take other than the visit of the officer? Were you threatened legally at all, only without that being acted upon (because, like you say, he didn't seek a prosecution), so a kind of bluff? Did the therapist's boss email or call demanding that the site must be taken down?

It kind of sounds like they are trying to silence you, to censor you, and that seems much more like harassment to me. However, like you say, over 200 people read your account and will have been given some insight into the character and ethics of this individual. For what it's worth, I won't forget your story, and I applaud you for putting it out there and telling it.

[Old Man]

4 hours ago, zygomaticus said:

When you say officer, you mean you had a visit from the police? So he made a complaint but didn't seek to bring charges against you? I wonder what the legal definition of distress is here in the UK! I see what you mean about it being open to abuse, and the horrible irony of that is that the complaint of harassment can in itself effectively prove to be harassment against the individual being accused, if that makes sense. After all, there are other rights in play here, like the right to your free speech to articulate an account that you can also back up with documentation. Clearly, the person in this whole situation that's been caused the greatest distress is you.

In terms of the pressure arriving, in what form did it take other than the visit of the officer? Were you threatened legally at all, only without that being acted upon (because, like you say, he didn't seek a prosecution), so a kind of bluff? Did the therapist's boss email or call demanding that the site must be taken down?

It kind of sounds like they are trying to silence you, to censor you, and that seems much more like harassment to me. However, like you say, over 200 people read your account and will have been given some insight into the character and ethics of this individual. For what it's worth, I won't forget your story, and I applaud you for putting it out there and telling it.

Yes to be fait I think the officer in point was trying to bring the case and the accusations to and end without having top press charges or take things further. I thinkm a case of bad law good officer.

But yes seems like censorship to me, but my skills in making it rank above his own website did come into play and make it somewhat brutal.

However the incident has brought a full scale breakdown in me. 

I'm now on diazapam, beta blockers and probably anti depressants going forward to enable me, to keep me safe ( I wasn't on anything before). I've just started a course of of therapy to get over the therapy and had to send my kids away because i didn't feel safe. 

[disequilibrium1]

Old Man, I missed your original post. I'm very sorry about the hell this guy put you through.
In the US, libel litigation is particularly prickly about "interfering with one's livelihood. Though I've been as truthful as possible from my perception, I've been careful not to name guilty parties by name publicly in my venting. I did file formal complaints, so they're aware of my frank opinion about their competency.

In processing my destructive, its been most helpful to de-mystify my therapy and the the relationship. I came to to (almost) see the therapist as a peer rather than an authority with any special knowledge. Unfortunately I fell for the therapist's "theatre," including the lie of the therapist's omniscience. Untangling this has been a difficult, but ultimately beneficial process--far more helpful than the actual therapy.

Wishing you strength.

 

[Mary S]

On 12/10/2020 at 4:10 PM, disequilibrium1 said:

In processing my destructive [therapy], it's been most helpful to de-mystify my therapy and the the relationship. I came to (almost) see the therapist as a peer rather than an authority with any special knowledge. Unfortunately I fell for the therapist's "theatre," including the lie of the therapist's omniscience. Untangling this has been a difficult, but ultimately beneficial process--far more helpful than the actual therapy.

Recently I started looking at my therapy experiences from a slightly different perspective. For the most part, I've looked at my negative therapy experiences as shocking. But for some reason, recently I started thinking of them (at least sometimes; not deliberately, but instinctively as gut feelings) as disgusting. Then, a couple of days ago, I tried looking up a phrase that I've encountered now and then, namely "processing feelings". Although I don't buy into everything I've read about "processing feelings", it started me thinking about "shocking" vs "disgusting". I began to see what may be an important difference, namely, that "shocking" has connotations of being debilitating, whereas "disgusting" has connotations of expressing that the behaviors in question are  wrong and/or harmful. So I'm now making a conscious effort to try to look at harmful therapy behaviors as "disgusting" rather than "shocking," and I think it may be helping me to cope better with my negative therapy experiences. I offer this in case it might be helpful to someone else.

[Mary S]

On 12/20/2020 at 11:29 PM, Mary S said:

So I'm now making a conscious effort to try to look at harmful therapy behaviors as "disgusting" rather than "shocking," and I think it may be helping me to cope better with my negative therapy experiences. I offer this in case it might be helpful to someone else.

A couple of examples of "disgusting" therapist behavior that came to mind today:

1. Being treated as an object of/character in the therapist's fantasy of what therapy should be.

2. Being criticized or shamed for not going along with the therapist's fantasy.

 

[Mary S]

I have been thinking about "disgust" vs "shocking" lately. I think that "pathological" may be better than either -- in particular, when I think of the time my worst therapist said that what I needed was something like a mold that a brick is made in, and when the mold is removed the brick retains the shape of the mold. I can still see this as both shocking and disgusting -- but I seem to be coming to the conclusion that the best word to describe it is "pathological". (I'm finding it interesting as I write this that "shocking" and "disgusting" both refer to my emotional reactions, whereas "pathological", to me at least, refer to the therapist's behavior more than my reaction to it.)

[zygomaticus]

6 hours ago, Mary S said:

I have been thinking about "disgust" vs "shocking" lately. I think that "pathological" may be better than either -- in particular, when I think of the time my worst therapist said that what I needed was something like a mold that a brick is made in, and when the mold is removed the brick retains the shape of the mold. I can still see this as both shocking and disgusting

That example also makes me think of the word 'paternalistic', which I think is probably a bit on the mild side in this context. Of course, a mould for a brick is standardised, so all the bricks are the same, so there is a conformism about this, too, which is typical of most therapy, which is generally dealing with manualised standards in theory and methodology. For individuals, however, one size most certainly does not fit all, and yet, as clients, we pretty much get crammed into these moulds regardless of whether we feel they are appropriate for us. Pathological is a good word, too, to me, it makes me think that there is a malady at the heart of the practice of therapy, that to think that clients should be moulded, or, perhaps, corralled or herded into the 'correct' pen, is, in-itself, evidence of psychological, or perhaps, ideological, disturbance. There is a term in behaviourism called 'shaping', which is kind of appropriate, given the process.

A word that resonates for me in relation to what I have experienced and learned about clinical psychology is 'disturbing'. The more I learn, the more disturbed I feel. 'Violating' is another that springs to mind, and it is a sense of violation that is at the heart of the damage that I personally feel from the fall-out of my treatment.

[Mary S]

17 hours ago, zygomaticus said:

A word that resonates for me in relation to what I have experienced and learned about clinical psychology is 'disturbing'. The more I learn, the more disturbed I feel. 'Violating' is another that springs to mind, and it is a sense of violation that is at the heart of the damage that I personally feel from the fall-out of my treatment.

Yes, "disturbing" and "violating" also fit my experiences with (and also reading about) therapy. I doubt that I'm the only one who has ever thought of the similarity between "therapist" and "the rapist".

[Old Man]

OK this gets worse I got an email a few days ago from my ex changing the childcare arrangements on the children, and saying my daughter no longer wants to see me and doesn't want to talk to me about it. His hands are all over this.

He brought me to another aborted suicide attempt today. ****ing aswipe.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Old Man

[zygomaticus]

Your instincts and experience of him are telling you his influence is at play. I believe you. It is dreadful that you should be going through all of this, all because of a therapist who abused your trust and continues to impact your life in profound ways. I understand why you are feeling desperate.

Please hang in there. I hope you have someone you can turn to in your support network, I realise that not everyone has a support network to speak of (I don't). I know this is obvious, because in the UK they are so well known, but in the past I've had to turn to The Samaritans, and they've generally been a comfort. A break up years ago left me feeling broken and desperate, and they definitely played a part in getting me through that time.

I also want to apologise, I missed your previous post above when it was posted months ago. I'm not surprised the gargantuan stress of a situation like yours has triggered a breakdown. I can't even begin to imagine the pain it must have caused.

So, for what it's worth, I empathise, and I truly hope you get through this awful time.